Where do we go from here?

LivPrimeLivPrime Member ✭✭✭

I think one thing has been absolutely spit on this week, and it is the idea of alleviating some of the pressure that talented players put on new/returning/casual players.

I am not saying Ranked Pro was God's gift to us and humanity, and it was perfect. It wasn't. It needed some serious changes, but I was relieved to know that they were at least trying to fix our largest issue. Contrary to discussions, it isn't whether old models are in the game, and it isn't the old in-game HUD, and it isn't whether the rocks are the same or different from the past. It is the fact that we are constantly hemorrhaging players. This idea, though absolutely pooped on all day by talented players, is the only single idea that has come out of the community/developers in a year in response to the crisis of the game. The first solution anyone has ever tried. We cried and moaned and banged our fists on the floor until it was removed/reverted (all we ever really do, btw).

So, now what? Now the casuals are leaving by the minute because the hope you promised them has been taken away. Then loyal players will leave because there are no casuals to kill. Then suddenly lobbies never go past 30, and everyone hides in hosted games. It didn't work. We didn't retain the player count. Ask yourselves why.

Maybe if you think long and hard about it, you will discover that we are the problem. Not the glitched crouch. Not the slow strafe. Us.

1. PS3 is entirely based on nostalgia.

Most people unfamiliar with H1 don't see PS3 and think "wow what a better version of the game." To them, it looks the same. Is nostalgia bad? Not necessarily. PS3 was badass. It was the most fun I had in the game, but based on the numbers we can see how many people the promise of PS3 attracts. 10-15k. That's it. Not 300k concurrent. We are talking about a time period in a game that happened two years ago now. Some people have moved on and have no desire to come back to the game, glory days version or not. Brand new players won't care either way. PS3 is a great foundation, but it is only enough on its own to attract the meager population we have all seen. I don't accept that, and I hope you guys don't either. I would rather not have the game at all than see it on 1 leg constantly. I think we should go for broke which brings me to my next point.

2. Eventually we are gonna have to swallow our pride and let the devs change the game.

Without some sort of evolving meta or change to the game, things become stale over time. Sure, the "competitive" or "ranked pro" version of the game can stay PS3 forever with bug fixes/QOL or whatever the hardcore players want it to be. You will never go a day with "basic PS3" being gone, but we have to loosen our hold on the base game. We are strangling it we are gripping so tightly. We say no to every single change. People don't return to H1 and say "Oh. The lighting is different. Think I will play for the next month." They come back and see more or less the same game with more or less the same amount of fun. We, the hardcore lovers of H1, are the only people who really notice it. People would like to come back for fun changes. Changes to the map (delete POIs/add new POIs - with balance obviously. Delete 1 to Add 1. Not just add 20). Add new guns. Take some guns away. Add roller blades and bicycles and hot air balloons. Bring back the old map. Not everything has to be a "combat update V2" where everything is permanent and we hate it. Sure, you might not agree on adding in a new rifle, but then you might play with it and find things are really fun. Or we might all hate it. Then we just change it. Go back to the drawing board. Or remove it. These things give a layer of new to the game. To a stranger, it seems exciting and different entirely. I would rather try new things and give the game its best chance/fail than choke off all evolution/progress just to appease 5-10k players at most. We all have the opportunity to embrace what made the game so memorable in the first place: the majority playing to purely have fun. If we could see it like this... solos/duos/fives just as a place to chill/have fun by yourself or with friends and then ranked to be somewhere where you sweat it out. It could be cool. I'm not saying we all run around holding hands and don't kill each other. I'm just saying instead of pulling your hair out because someone killed you from a hot air balloon and you are a god with 10k hours who should never die and it isn't balanced or fair, you laugh your ass off and move on in the casual mode.
Summary: Let them update the casual modes with new and intriguing stuff for people to chill and have fun with. Make winning the most fun part again rather than "Oh, I only got 10 kills for that win. What a waste of time" Allow a ranked pro or tournament mode where people all out battle each other on the most pure competitive form of the game with limited RNG or imbalance. This doesn't even have to be locked behind a certain rank. I almost say make a solo queue with no rankings or leaderboards connected to it with silly stuff, then make a separate queue for leaderboard/rank grinding. Anyone can sweat if they choose to or chill and roleplay if they want. Everybody wins.

We can't keep doing this. We have to compromise. We have to decide what is more important, having our own perfect version of the entire game or having the chance at a decent playerbase (not just full lobbies, but full lobbies in your region 24 hours a day). I really hope we can all come to an agreement about some of this stuff. We can't just let the game die off because we are too stingy with content. It deserves more than that.


  • XxWestCoastBlazexXXxWestCoastBlazexX Member ✭✭
    edited March 23

    This really needed to be said. I hope people will open they’re mind a bit and try to understand it from a different perspective.

  • 2BiTs2BiTs Member

    100% agree.These updates always seem to revolve around the elites. And the casuals leave for another game.

  • C4rTC4rT Member

    Good post! Working on game modes should be the main thing for Nantg at the moment. Bringing back some old stufs was important and gameplay is at a good enough point now, not perfect but keeping using energy on it wouldnt be worth. Gameplay is enjoyable now, move on from here and be inovative to attract people with good and balanced game modes. The only "playing for high kill games" mentality of this game is now slowly kiling it. Its cool and i like playing for kills but there should be other posibilities, other game modes or ranking systems... Work on it and once it's done you can start to advertise the games and expect the player base to grow

  • ix0xoix0xo Member ✭✭
    edited March 23

    @SUP3RSoN1K @Arclegger

    This is the typical dicussion that I wanted/searched.

    First of all, no, PS3 is clearly not for nostalgia. We asked for PS3 because of Combat Update inertia, friction on our movements, clunky animations because of CU animations and perpetual state changes (especially when firing) causing slow downs, etc... This isn't what we except from the most arcade battle royale game. Objective is to have a lot of liberty and so not be blocked, restricted due to a bad global movement system...

    In other words, Combat Update aimed to copy/paste PUBG... and you can't deny that. Daybreak had panicked, despite the loss of the identity/spirit of their own game that made this arcade side so loved by a lot of players. That's proven by the fact that H1Z1 Playstation 4 version is literally the CU continuity.

    In the same way, that's why Jace Hall talked about the CS:GO Battle Royale on the PC side. Nant G care a lot about competitive, professionnal environment. Perfect recent add is ranked pro, which isn't a bad idea/concept.
    Basically, Call of Duty at its prime was a perfect game because they had successfully arrived to split the competitive/professional aspect of the fun/public aspect. That must be the same way of thinking on Z1:BR. Succinctly and in a pertinent way, ranked pro should be accessible as Showdown Qualifiers (or for other competitive events) only during the week-end.
    Public games must be radically different than ranked pro games, because both are aiming radically different group of players. Because there is a real competitive spirit around Ranked Pro, first side would be public games, aiming the player base majority for a fun and entertainment gaming experience. Another one would be Ranked Pro, aiming competitive environment and (semi) professionnal players for events qualifiers, which would have clearly different objectives than public games.
    So as examples, there should be:

    • Spawn select on ranked pro, but not on public games
    • Nade slot on ranked pro, but not on public games
    • Clearly less smokes - as world spawn loot - than on ranked pro
    • Different ranks on ranked pro: click here to read all the explanations about prestiges with clan system
    • More extra POIs (like Ponyvale, Coy Scrapyard, Pleasant Valley County Carnival, ...) on ranked pro, but less on public games
    • More ways to hide himself (like big rocks, small/low walls, caravans, ...) on ranked pro, but less on public games
    • Less players on ranked pro (75 players max), but more on public games (190 players max)
    • etc...

    Afterward, Z1:BR doesn't need a ton of game modes at all. There is already a player base around 5k players, the game just need solo, duo, five, ranked pro (only during week-end) and usual arcade games. Furthermore, remember that PvE mode is also coming for S4. The only new and very interesting add is a shooting practice area in lobby, this replacing Combat Zone as a game mode.

  • TosslerTossler Member ✭✭

    @Arclegger @SUP3RSoN1K

    I think you should try and introduce these features:

    These are 3 lists. Each showing my opinions and suggestions for the PS4 weapons if they were on PC, a specific revive system that keeps two taps in the game but isn't bodyshot only & spawn suggestions for unused vehicles. I really want you guys to see this as Z1 simply doesn't meet the BR standard right now and it needs more content.

  • YovaLyTYovaLyT Member ✭✭✭

    Glad im not the only person who thinks this way. This community is constantly shooting itself in the foot, and the Dev's are now P***y Whipped by a generation of entitled millennials. They can't make decisions for the game without being crucified for it.
    I want the Desert Eagle in the game tuned as a Magnum counterpart Damnit!
    I want to use the Combat Knife as a Throwing Knife too!
    I want to throw a Molotov into a Gas Grenade to create a compound chemical explosion!
    I want to craft Smoke Arrows and Gas Arrows
    I want a Motocross Bike in the game to do tricks and add style.
    I want other means of sabotage besides just using a Bio Fuel Bomb. Like Crafting Proximity mines or EMP's.
    I want to heal while moving (limited to walk speed)

    But.. what do i know right?

  • LivPrimeLivPrime Member ✭✭✭

    All of these are good feedback. Let's all continue to try to keep discussions civil.

    @ix0xo I think that that still, if you reflect on it impartially, is based in nostalgia. If someone who had never heard of H1Z1 played the game today, after the combat update, and a cloned version of PS3, they might feel the original PS3 movement is better than the others slightly, but it still isn't really a good movement system. When you consider games known for fluid movement, CS:GO, Quake, Apex, you can see this is pretty clear. The movement, even at its peak, isn't bad to an outsider. It just isn't particularly great either. Not anything special to write home about. If you showed PS3 movement clips to someone new/casual and compared it to today's movement and tried to describe the difference in strafe, etc. They probably wouldn't really give a ****. It matters to us only, the people who played the game religiously back then. Some pieces of that have to be rooted in nostalgia. I think its fine to go back to the old movement in its entirety, but I also believe that taking a year to do all of that isn't really the way to grow the game. Now that we have already wasted all this time, it is pretty clear that "pre-season 3" mechanics only appeal to about 15k players (appeal to them enough to bring them back/make them want to grind the game). However, what's done is done. Finish up the rest of the revert. That's fine. Just don't expect an increase in population over it.
    What my post is considering more is what will happen after all this work to revert is done? Will people magically be okay with new content being added to the game? I don't think so. It will be a perfectly preserved specimen of PS3 with only 5k active players. :(

    I liked the idea of ranked pro as they first described it, but I think there are better ways that please more people. It is not possible to grow the playerbase and still incentivise high kill games against noobs to get royalty. I truly think the only way to move forward and please everyone is to add an official ranked mode and an official casual mode. Casual mode being silly and fun (no real need for arcade modes until the playerbase stabilizes. Casual mode will more or less replace it temporarily) It would start in solos only. Maybe eventually it would include duos/fives as well. It gives everyone the opportunity to be happy. In ranked, you have leaderboards and ranks and the game is just as you remember it. Changes to the ranked mode have to pass a poll with at least 75% of votes. This is the most pure version of what the ranked community wants with no changes. Could be a mode with no lammies spawning on the ground, no e-tips, etc. Minimal RNG. Ranks remain the same. Bronze to Royalty. This would be more or less exactly like lobbies are now. People would be sweating for high kill games. Casual players might join to grind for a higher rank/reward for the season, etc.You could only play ranked mode after you hit account level 15 (to prevent cheaters from creating new accounts and instantly hacking to the top of the leaderboards), and until you hit 15, proximity chat is locked/muted (would also help with when people get banned for toxicity).
    Casual mode would be a place that is solely about fun/winning. Kills are not at all incentivised. You don't have a top 10 or leaderboard. Most competitive aspects are removed other than possibly a total win count. It would return the game to what it used to be about, chilling with friends and trying to get a win at all costs. The developers could feel free to add whatever content they think would be fun. The only thing that would remain untouched is the PS3 shooting mechanics/textures/lighting from the revert. They could add new weapons or include revive if casual ever existed in duos/fives or new vehicles. Creativity can run wild. It also gives a place to test these things without breaking the trust of the competitive players.

    I have a couple thousand hours in the game. I am not bad or a noob, but I would rather go for the win than go for kills. I would rather play with goofy mechanics sometimes. This pleases players like me, who crave something new occasionally. And if I wanted to sweat it out, I could grind ranked. You say you like the idea of this being the CS:GO of Battle Royales. For that to happen, there has to be something for everyone. Even if they add PvE mode, the game still won't have a place for everyone. People want to play the game without getting clapped every single time. This is the key to growth, in my opinion.

  • StrikeZoneStrikeZone Member

    only way to go from here is up, need to increase bullet speed, get rid of car1z1 and cod rushing

  • LivPrimeLivPrime Member ✭✭✭

    @StrikeZone said:
    only way to go from here is up, need to increase bullet speed, get rid of car1z1 and cod rushing

    I don't think you will be able to persuade anyone to increase bullet speed ever again.
    Car1Z1 is a tough nut to crack because the only real solution is to remove the cars that can be abused the most (cop cars), but then jeeps would just kinda become the new cop cars. If you nerfed spawns, it wouldn't really make it balanced either because then it becomes something where the person with the cop car instead of an ATV more or less will win the game due to their huge advantage. It is really hard to partially nerf cars without just making it a massive RNG advantage. Not sure how to go about it other than more car damaging tools (like EMPs on the PS4).
    The only thing I would like to see is a complete animation for entering/exiting a vehicle or some way to predict where a passenger would land if they jumped on you (so that you could pre-aim that spot). Definitely feels incomplete and needs a change.

  • StrikeZoneStrikeZone Member

    i am not talking about persuading anyone, im talking about what needs to be done to save the game. season 2, with fixes to car1z1, teleportation and cod rushing, Keep ranked pro, so that people who are extremely good at this game do not destroy new players. The worst part are the people who just sit in solos to destory noobs.

  • ix0xoix0xo Member ✭✭

    If new or casual players want to have a fun, entertenment experience and stay, then the game must give them a sensation of discovery. As 2 years ago, we loved the game while we were (really) bad.

    So we currently need to Test Features IN GAME (click here to see the Trello roadmap), before S4, to directly access to a test mode in game menus. So it means more effectiveness, because stuff needed for the game would be more identifiable, recognizable. Game design would be easier because content would be centered around what should be positively done to improve the game in large a way.
    We're now almost at the Pre-Season 3 foundations again, even if the result isn't as perfect as players wished because there are bugs, strafe and jump feels clunky, crouch isn't the same, etc... but they can be fixed/adjusted.

    • For example, I'm gonna be honest, I'd love to test a new outplay mouvement mechanic: the roll

    DBG already had thought to add a combat roll, but this wasn't well designed: doing a roll only when you get out of a car. A roll mechanic as an usual outplay mouvement mechanic would help people to kill players on rooftops, behind small/low walls, hided inside of houses, ... while giving to new and casual players new ways to play, more chance to dodge bullets, to get out of some complicated situations (like kill someone cod-rushing you), ...
    So the roll would be an activatable, as if you were doing a crouch or a jump, but with a cooldown between two activations and it'd not be activable when getting out of a vehicle. (click here to see the Streamable video)

  • FighterzFighterz Member

    The roll in the car is excellent and slows a little the cod rush, I liked this idea.

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